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Old 12-07-2007, 09:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
Epyon MX
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The Death of Epic Flag (Warning: Complaining Inside)

Alright. A lot of you know, I like Halo: CE a lot. And what's more, I love EPIC Capture the Flag matches. If it lasts longer than an hour, it can only get better from there. A few of you had mentioned you wouldn't mind playing a game of Epic Flag with me some night (probably not every night, but one takes what one can get). So I set out to create just that, an Epic CTF map and gametype for PGL to enjoy.

EPIC flag, for those who don't know, is essentially a CTF match that lasts over an hour. When a game lasts that long, it becomes very different than the Halo you find in matchmaking. It instead becomes very tactical and very teamwork oriented. You have to fight the enemy, you have to organize your team. All-star players become less important since they can no longer be counted on to carry a team. It becomes more focused on the team. And personally, I'm never happier when I'm playing Epic Flag.

So I just finished up my tweaks of both the Epic Flag gametype and a re-Forging of Valhalla to resemble Blood Gulch. I dug out my Halo:CE disc and threw it in my 360. Booting it up with my 2 controllers I proceeded to walk around and get a feel for the level, noting weapon's placements and such. I then returned to Forge and created my best approximation. It is certainly not Blood Gulch. For example, you can't have Plasma Rifles for some inexplicable reason on Valhalla. And there are mancannons, which change a lot, but I put a teleporter in for old time's sake. It's not perfect, but I think it's a faithful rendition. I then looked at the CTF Pro settings in Halo: CE and cherrypicked with what I remember being my favorite settings from past totally awesome (read: especially long) CTF matches. And I finished both the Forge map and the gametype tonight.

But I'm not sure I'm ever going to use either. Why? Because when I was testing I discovered two (2) horrifying things that Bungie has changed that completely break my game (and my heart).

1) Indestructible vehicles.
What it is: This was a huge component of Halo 1 for me. If you made an unsuccessful run for the enemy's flag with a 'hog, then Congrats! The enemy team now has two warthogs with which to make their return assault.
Why I like it: It discourages haphazard Rambo style play. Since it's really hard to steal the flag without a vehicle, you can't just run across the map and lose the hog. Secondly, it introduces a secondary objective, which is vehicle management. Instead of always assaulting the flag, you can go on vehicle runs to recover your hog for your next assault. Likewise, a team must now divide resources between defending the flag, defending vehicles and assaulting the enemy flag and stealing enemy vehicles.
Why it's broken: In Halo 2, all vehicles were destructible. Always. So imagine my delight when Bungie announces that in Halo 3 would feature indestructible vehicles. Unfortunately, the vehicles will time-out and then respawn at their original point behind the bases. Thus breaking my mechanic. Even worse, is the way I had it set up, there were never any respawns. So once anyone walks away from a 'hog for the first time, the 'Hog disappears from the map forever.

2) Touch return for flags
What it is: If you steal an enemy's flag, then to return it, all they have to do is touch it. Standard CTF Pro configuration from Halo: CE.
Why I like it: Another tactical tweak to this gametype. It's extremely easy to return the flag, which means that defenders need to be well co-ordinated. You can no longer back on some all-star stealing the flag and getting it back to the mid-field where you can likely relay it back to your base. That ain't gonna cut it. You're going to be much better off, developing a strategy for how you're going to get your flag carrier in, out and back home than leaving some cowboy to charge off recklessly.
Why it's broken: Unlike previous versions, where physical touching of the flag was required, now if any defender gets within 15 meters (!) of the flag, it's an instant return. Apparently, you have hands that are 45 feet long and can touch a flag for the instant return. Worse yet, the touch mechanic can now be applied while driving a vehicle. So what was once a difficult encounter of getting into a tight perimeter of attackers and physically touching the flag is now reduced to a comical farce where a flag is automatically returned even if the attacker purposefully drops the flag within spitting distance of a defender.

Where do I stand now? Heartbroken. I tried looking at all the settings and the two issues here cannot be modified as far as I know. It's just not the same. *sigh* Of course, I just got up from my 360 and typed this post. I'm sure I'll be okay in the morning (read: probably not, but I will try really hard to stop complaining about in threads).

P.S. I warned you that there was going to be complaining.
P.P.S. If you can figure out how to fix these in Forge/ Custom Game modification, I will love you forever.
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Old 12-08-2007, 01:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
The Milk Man 09
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Well if you get it working i would be glad to jump back on halo and play with you.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:21 AM   #3 (permalink)
ZoomZoom71
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Ep, I'm a big fan of well-balanced EPIC CTF matches, as well. I think we can manage with the changes that have been made, but it'll definitely take some thought, to keep matches from becoming full of grief.

Me? I don't really like touch-return. I'm ok with the flag owners having to sit on it for 15 seconds, then have it returned, but not at an immediate touch. I played too many Classic CTF matches on Sanctuary to get tired of that carp.

And, I'm not so sure destructible vehicles is a bad thing. I think the same fear of losing the vehicles exists, because you still have to do without it, as a team. I understand your concern, though, and the change in balance that no longer exists.
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
Epyon MX
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Touch return isn't really the deal breaker that indestructible vehicles is. In both cases, I don't really get what Bungie was thinking when they set up the way they did.

In both cases, it is possible to have a good CTF match without them working. The indestructible vehicles thing especially. On a 4v4, it's not a big deal having an extra warthog. Using 2 Warthogs means that you have everyone in a Warthog and no one defending. But on 6v6 or 8v8, having 2 Warthogs is a major advantage.

Touch return can stay or go. My opinion of it varies for each map. On bigger maps, it's a real plus for me. But on a smaller map like Valhalla (Valhalla, btw, is like half the size of Blood Gulch), it can just be painful.

It's all moot, because EPIC CTF really requires a large map with bases and a lot of players. Something we have neither of at the moment. I have faith that we can get the players, but the maps are still lacking (literally ZERO big maps). Hopefully, Rat's Nest in the Heroic pack satisfies that. All the same, I have to wonder how many people will buy the map pack when there are so many other great games out right now.

It's extremely obvious that Bungie has no intention of recreating the feel of Halo 1 in any of their Halo 3 maps. Halo 3 is all about non-stop action. Never take a breath, never release the trigger. All the maps are smaller and there are no big traditional maps. (Even Halo 2 had Waterworks and Coagulation was big.) These changes to the vehicles and touch return highlight that. They are designed to keep the game quickly progressing to the end. Vehicles respawn back at your base with full-health and ready for duty. Blahblahblah.

Here's my problem (and why I'm so dysfunctional about all this trivial stuff): Normally, if you don't like a sequel, then you can just go back and play the original. The original isn't broken, it's still functional. So for all the times I complain about Halo 3 I still go back and play Halo 1. I do this a lot. But I can only do that for the Campaign. I wouldn't complain so much about Halo 3 if I could still get a good network game of Halo 1 going. Unfortunately, the days are over when I could round up 10-15 people for a good LAN session of Halo. Halo 3 is my only option, and it's turning into a non-option.

Oh well. If that's the way it is, then that's the way it is.

Conclusion: EPIC FLAG is going to be a lot different than I wish it would be, but I'm certain we can still find a good working variant.

P.S. I will probably continue to complain in this thread, but hopefully no where else. So if you don't like my whining, then go somewhere else.

Last edited by Epyon MX : 12-08-2007 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Sounds good.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
Wondermonkey
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I didn't care for the multiplayer in Halo: CE nearly as much as I do Halo 3 (save the ranking issues of course). I look at the multiplayer in Halo: CE as a beta and an experiment. I don't think it worked very well. I have no time for CTF matches that go on for over an hour though, but I'll gladly watch you play.
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
The Milk Man 09
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Xbox connect anyone?

I see that as the only true way to be able to play epic flag but then none of us can talk so, lame.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
Epyon MX
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If I could marry Halo: CE, I would.

There was Epic Flag in Halo 2, Milk. And there will be in Halo 3, I'm sure. But it'll be Halo 3-style Epic Flag. Which I suppose is what one would expect when playing Halo 3.
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Old 12-09-2007, 06:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
ZoomZoom71
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Ep, when we both have the time, I'd love to get into some Forge with you and try to work out something. I've yet to get any real design time w/ Forge anyway, so that'd be nice. I don't even really know how to use it.
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:20 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Man alive. I spent countless hours in Forge building what I thought would be instant PGL classic maps and gametypes.

The end result of all my hard work: Mostly people telling me that it didn't work well at all and it really wasn't any fun.


Forge is a really cool option, but if you're attemtping to build an epic style map, you've got your work cut out for you. However, if you're working on it sometime, you're welcome to send me an invite, and if I have time, I'll be happy to toss in Halo 3 and help you out. I do have a lot of experience in Forge, so I might be able to help a little bit if you give me some direction.
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I'll take Hogs n' Specs Chops anytime over CTF. Still, I'd like to see what you come up with Epyon.
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Old 05-12-2008, 07:49 PM   #12 (permalink)
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So, now that we have that Epic map, now known as Avalanche....anyone think we can gather enough people from PGL willing to give some 2-flag CTF a go? I do think we should try to balance the teams a little bit, since we know there are some frickin' Halo-ringers among us.

Whatcha think?
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