Drill our oil petition

[Thornes70]

Originally Posted by Elite Ronnie

As I said before it all depends on what news you choose to believe. The left will say what you said which is truth, the right will say In 1995, Congress authorized oil drilling in the coastal plain – but President Bill Clinton vetoed it which is also truth. There are a thousand arguments on both sides. MY personal thought is... and I feel its a very reolistic one is..... Were gonna have all the alternative forms of energy someday, but we have had gas trucks and cars for 70 years or more and its gonna take a while to get completly turned around. It will be a slow process so in the mean time more oil will bring prices down till we can get off it. Kinda like nicoret gum, haha. I know you dont agree but thats what makes america great we can think what we want and not get shot for it.

The issue I have is that the choice to believe in one source of news over the other based on political affiliation causes more ignorance than understanding... The fact of the matter is that it all seems to boil down to something of an Enron effect that is causing gas to be so expensive.

Now, I've gotta copy/paste this info, as it's pretty telling (and I have checked as many facts as I had time for - although I already know because of where it's coming from, you may say it's b.s.)

ONE PIECE OF LEGISLATION IS WHY OIL IS THROUGH THE ROOF
Lay, DeLay, Gramm, Gramm & Clinton

PART ONE
ICE, ICE, Baby | Ed Wallace | Star-Telegram.com

PART TWO
ICE, ICE, Baby, conclusion | Ed Wallace | Star-Telegram.com

Republicans offer the same old tired slogans that they have touted throughout the Bush years and that haven’t done anything to combat the increase in gas prices

- More Drilling: Domestic drilling has not led to lower prices. Since 2000, drilling has increased dramatically – climbing about 66 percent– while gas prices continue to increase. and gas companies have shown that they cannot keep pace with the rate of drilling permits that the federal government is handing out – over the past 4 years they have received and are sitting on nearly 10,000 permits that they aren’t using to increase domestic production. Since 1999, drilling permits for oil and gas development on public lands increased more than 361 percent.

- OCS: The vast majority of federal oil and gas resources located on the OCS are already open for development - of all the oil and gas believed to exist on the OCS, nearly 80% of oil and 82% of natural gas is located in areas already open for leasing. In 2006, the federal government opened 8.3 million new acres in the Gulf of Mexico to drilling, yet gasoline prices have increased by $1.69 per gallon. Only 10.5 million of the 44 million leased offshore acres are actually producing oil or gas.

- Open ANWR: EIA estimates that if we open ANWR today, twenty years down the road, at peak production, gas prices would be lowered at the maximum by $1.44 per barrel, which translates to only a few cents a gallon. Increased conservation and the use of alternative technologies in the last three years have cut the projected need for imported oil between now and 2050 by more than 100 billion barrels (EIA) – ten times more benefit than what we might be able to get a decade from now from ANWR.

- More Refineries: We have excess refining capacity. Last week, our refineries were running at 89% capacity – well below the 95-98% capacity use rates we’ve seen this time of year for the last decade. Republicans argue that environmental regulations are preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery, which was approved. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.

Republicans and Democrats have a fundamentally different approach to tackling high gas prices. Democrats are being aggressive today to lower prices and reduce dependence on foreign oil while thinking ahead to tomorrow

- Working to Address Rising Gas Prices

- Enacted legislation to increase oil supply by temporarily suspending the fill of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, the nation’s crude oil stockpile. (H.R. 6022)

- Gave the FTC new authority to crack down on those manipulating wholesale energy markets to keep prices high in the Energy Independence and Security Act (H.R. 6)

- Approved the Gas Price Relief for Consumers Act (H.R. 6074) to hold the OPEC monopoly accountable for price fixing that flouts the free market and artificially drives up the cost of crude oil.

- Passed the Federal Price Gouging Prevention Act (H.R. 1252) to investigate price gouging by retailers who may be using the cover of high prices to unfairly inflate their rates even further.

- Investing in a Sustainable, Energy Independent America

- Enacted the landmark Energy Independence and Security Act (H.R. 6) that raised vehicle fuel efficiency for the first time in 32 years and increased the renewable fuels standard.

- Passed the Renewable Energy and Energy Conservation Act (H.R. 5351) to end unnecessary subsidies to oil companies making record profits and invest in clean, renewable energy and energy efficiency.

- Approved the Renewable Energy and Job Creation Act (H.R. 6049) to renew and expand tax incentives for renewable energy.

- Passed the Food and Energy Security Act (H.R. 2419) that promotes the development of biofuels, including those from non-corn sources.

If costs go up then of course prices go up. But why then would profits go up? Shouldn’t it be a wash? YEP

But here’s another wrinkle…the cost for Middle East oil producers hasn’t gone up!

FACT

Oil executives and speculators are getting rich on the backs of American consumers. Indeed, on average, it costs a company such as ExxonMobil about $20 to extract a barrel of oil, which in turn is sold for more than $115 a barrel. Refiner profit margins have also been soaring at vertically integrated oil companies, which helps explain how the largest five oil companies in America have posted more than $550 billion in profits since 2001
Public Citizen | Press Room - Bush, Congress Must Hold Oil Industry, Speculators Accountable for High Gas Prices

[Quo]

Interesting that you would post the excess verbage with the articles. While the article doesn't seem spun toward one party or another, the verbage appears to be forum fodder that seems to just be more in the endless debate over ANWR and who's doing what in congress. The reality is, both sides suck and no one's addressing real problems.

The articles are a good read. One more reason that pork/rider bills need to come to and end in Congress. Gramm/DeLay/Clinton and crowd need to be called on the carpet for what they did. Ridiculous.

[MadBryan]

I heard it was a missile and not a plane that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11

[ZoomZoom71]

Originally Posted by MadBryan

I heard it was a missile and not a plane that crashed into the Pentagon on 9/11

Someone spent a LOT of time making those slideshows. They were pretty convincing, no doubt. I think it was one of those ShamWow! salesmen.

[Thornes70]

Excess vergage? What do you mean by that, Quo? I don't know if you're familiar with Rhodes, but she does a hell of a lot of research on her topics, and when it's posted up about her shows, she insists you do your own research (which I did quite a bit of).

as for the endless debate over ANWR, when you consider the amount of available drilling acreage that oil companies have at their disposal NOW, it sure as heck makes you wonder why they ARE NOT putting any of them permits to use but this ANWR b.s. is being pushed as our last remaining vestige of hope.

MadB, I take it that the only way you would ever believe anything is if some republican came up & told you it was so, huh? I find it funny people will take the word of a right-wing radio host as gospel (even though they are consistently proven to be misrepresenting the facts or outright lying), while anyone on the left is immediately dismissed, despite having a ton of proof to hold up infront of you... Your loss.

By the way - here's proof about the lies of the Chinese drilling off Cuban waters (I'm sure you have a perfectly logical excuse for dismissing a Republican saying it's not true, huh?):

First the lie being pushed:

+ YouTube Video

Now the lie being called out:

+ YouTube Video

[Quo]

Originally Posted by Thornes70

Excess vergage? What do you mean by that, Quo? I don't know if you're familiar with Rhodes, but she does a hell of a lot of research on her topics, and when it's posted up about her shows, she insists you do your own research (which I did quite a bit of).

Only that the article made one point, while the verbage posted went in a totally different direction. The article pointed to a specific set of acts by two congressmen (Gramm and DeLay) and Clinton. It was a bi-partisan smorgasborg of blame. On the other hand, the verbage from whatever the other stuff was was pulled from an obviously partisan source looking to prove one side was doing more than the other (and the right way). The two just didn't go together. There's nothing wrong with posting either, I just didn't get how they fit together.

Originally Posted by Thornes70

as for the endless debate over ANWR, when you consider the amount of available drilling acreage that oil companies have at their disposal NOW, it sure as heck makes you wonder why they ARE NOT putting any of them permits to use but this ANWR b.s. is being pushed as our last remaining vestige of hope.

My advice: if any media source is pushing ANWR as a last vestige of anything -- be it as a supply of oil or wildlife conservation -- you should ignore that source as legitimate, because it's neither. It's a talking point, and that's it. Don't buy into the hype. It's not worth it. Having read what I've read about ANWR, it's clear that it won't help that much, and it won't hurt that much either.

Originally Posted by Thornes70

MadB, I take it that the only way you would ever believe anything is if some republican came up & told you it was so, huh? I find it funny people will take the word of a right-wing radio host as gospel (even though they are consistently proven to be misrepresenting the facts or outright lying), while anyone on the left is immediately dismissed, despite having a ton of proof to hold up infront of you... Your loss.

Careful here. Hypocrisy is an ugly thing... Everyone has one or more media outlets that they get their primary news from. Dem news sources spin just as much as republican sources. Dem followers are just as likely to take Al Gore's word as gospel as Republicans are to take Rush Limbaugh's.

The "China is drilling off the coast of Cuba" thing doesn't have legs. It'll blow by, because it's clearly ridiculous. As far as the drilling thing goes in general, oil companies drill when it's profitable for them, so there's more to why they aren't drilling if they have all the necessary permits and permissions. Bottom line... right now, there's no fuel shortage. There's too much speculation in the market. We're able to get oil, and we're evidently willing to pay out the nose for it. Which means that if American oil companies had access to more American oil right now, guess what they'd be charging for it? ...Just slightly less than the Saudis, Canadians and everyone else are charging for it, that's what.

The answer isn't in oil. It's in reducing speculation and diversifying demand. But Congress was too busy having hearings on freaking baseball to notice when all this was heating up...

[Thornes70]

That's funny, because I see all those things interconnected: the main "pro-ANWR" argument is usually about there needing to be more resources for drilling, yet there is already an insane amount of area oil companies have that they are not drilling. Also, the price of gas is another argument for drilling in ANWR, so the rest is just as relevant. As for blame, it goes in all directions, not just on one side or the other.

As for your second point, the problem isn't so much about sources taking one side or the other being biased, it's that with the several government and scientific analysis that is out there, it's a pointless quest to open ANWR; if they go in there, and after 20 years we're saving roughly a penny per gallon - it does nothing... And that would be irreversible for the area, basically destroying it. Then what precedent does that set? Oil companies already have tons of leases on BLM land to drill - do we start allowing them to go into all our America's parks and wildlife refuges to drill? Where does it stop? Despite the hippie-eco-freak talking point of saving some bug or squirrel or whatever, the bigger issue about ANWR is maintaining a line in the sand to not set the ball rolling to give up more refuges and environmental zones for the sake of a few drops of oil, dig? At least that's the way I see it.

As for hypocrisy... I'll agree with you about Dem/Rep spin, and I'm not saying my sources are better or anything... I'm saying that I've offered very relevant, factual information that can be verified by a number of different areas (and which have even been provided in most cases) for all to view and make up their own mind; maybe I was a bit pissy (hey give me a break - it's early ). Nobody likes being patronized, and I'm not trying to do that; however when sarcasm adds nothing to someone's side of the debate and only seems to be there as an eye-rolling remark to basically say my information or opinion is crap, I'm going to call that out.

My posting the videos about Cuba/China was actually to prove the point about the lying, and to further my point about the truths. It's one thing to post a link to an internet article, but it's another thing to actually see it happen. Plus, someone had brought it up earlier - either in this thread or one of the others, so I thought it was relevant.

As far as the drilling thing goes in general, oil companies drill when it's profitable for them, so there's more to why they aren't drilling if they have all the necessary permits and permissions. Bottom line... right now, there's no fuel shortage. There's too much speculation in the market. We're able to get oil, and we're evidently willing to pay out the nose for it. Which means that if American oil companies had access to more American oil right now, guess what they'd be charging for it? ...Just slightly less than the Saudis, Canadians and everyone else are charging for it, that's what.

The answer isn't in oil. It's in reducing speculation and diversifying demand. But Congress was too busy having hearings on freaking baseball to notice when all this was heating up...

I agree 100%

[Elite Ronnie]

If its not a supply and demand problem why did they "Enacted legislation to increase oil supply by temporarily suspending the fill of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, the nation’s crude oil stockpile. (H.R. 6022)"? That seems to look like there saying lets stop filling the reserves so there will be more supply so there will be less demand hence a price drop. My final point in this thread is {because this thread will never end, ha ha} is that every product to ever be sold in this country and I mean everything has worked on supply and demand. Thats how free market works. So I dont understand how gas is not the same. Also everyone keeps talking about record profitts, but oil co. say there making %10. Now your article says there making like $100 a barrel. So when they told congress that under oath that they make %10, I believe it to be true. Because if they where lying the IRS could check it out and if it wasnt true they would be guilty of lying under oath, ya know like bill clinton and barry bonds, and they havent been found guilty of that. I may be wrong but I would think a audit would find the truth and I would think that if I though of it, washington would have thought of it too. They have just sold lots and lots of gas and made there billions %10 at a time and there is nothing wrong with that. Any buisness makes $10 on there products.

[Thornes70]

Ronnie, there's a bit of a misunderstanding about supply & demand and how it relates to the strategic oil reserve vs. supply & demand and how it relates to future oil drilling:

The SOR is oil that is available right this second, so to speak, and can be put onto the market immediately... Any allowance of drilling in ANWR or new offshore drilling permits won't do diddly for supply & demand for ten years at best, 20 years more likely. It is also not permanent, and will end on December 31, 2008. It is estimated that prices will drop anywhere from 5 cents to 25 cents when it's enacted on July 1st (it's only 70,000 barrels per day).

As for supply & demand vs. drilling, the oil companies have about 10,000 permits to drill, currently on over 68 MILLION acres leased to them that they can drill on, today, right now, this very second - over 30 million of them acres being offshore. These are acres that congress and everyone involved has already given the green light - they have nothing stopping them from drilling on these acres. Infact, there are many wells - including Alaska's National Petroleum Reserve with more KNOWN amounts of oil than ESTIMATED oil in ANWR - which already has everything inplace (wells, pumps, pipes, etc... basically already has a "straw in the ground" as I heard it the other day) - that has simply been "capped" and is not being used.

The myth of 'free market supply & demand' is a farce; I'll have that debate with you any day - and as far as the oil companies are concerned, there's nothing "free market" about them - but that's for another topic & I don't want to stray here (you're welcome! ). Believe me - I'm all for regulated free market; but this is not an example of free market by any means.

Here's the deal about profits. First of all, the IRS has nothing to do with oil's profits. Oil companies are publicly traded, so if their numbers are false, it is the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) that prosecute. Companies have to give very exact, detailed information about profits, forecasts, etc.

That being said, a mere 10% profit is just laughable... Since 2001, oil profits have increased 176%, using the big five: ExxonMobil, BP, Royal Dutch Shell, ConocoPhillips, and ChevronTexaco. To back that up even more, this is just a report on Exxon, taken from a current businessweek article:

Exxon Mobil's shareholders should be a happy bunch. The company racked up a record $40.6 billion in profits in 2007 on sales of $358.6 billion, on top of $39.5 billion in 2006 on sales of $335.1 billion, and $36.1 billion in 2005 on sales of $328.2 billion. Since Tillerson's elevation to chairman and CEO in January, 2006, the stock climbed from 55 a share to 96 on May 21, 2008, before easing to 85 on June 3.

It doesn't matter diddly what they "claim" to have made in profits to the public, only what they report to the SEC. I found this info HERE, which is backed up with it's sources on the bottom of it's page if you don't believe them.

BOTTOM LINE:

The problem isn't supply & demand, since all suppliers are currently at or near peak production... The problem isn't ANWR, offshore drilling or any of that bs - 68 MILLION ACRES of available resources with TEN THOUSAND approved drilling permits (yet only one refinery permit - go figure)...

The problem is speculation. You're going to hear a lot about the "Enron Loophole" this next week - if not, google it.

The article I quoted above brings up some interesting things if you put two & two together - speculation to drive up the cost of gas also affects stock... Interesting fact: Exxon spent more money last year buying back it's own stock rather than "investing" in other resources or drilling, yadda yadda. What does that tell you? The more oil companies make landgrabs, sit on them & do nothing, then wait until their stock is at a premium - that's when they can make some cashola.

Same as Enron...

Here's a great USA Today article I recommend reading: Can Congress really lower gas prices? - USATODAY.com

[Elite Ronnie]

so you believe all the oil companys that are in competition with each other both over sea's and american company's have some kind of meeting and say "no one sell gas for less than X amount". If someone was selln cokes for $2 on the street corner making double on that coke it seems like someone else would say "hey im gonna sell coke for $1.75 and still make 75 cent on every one I sell". The the guy selln for $2 would have to drop his price. In my mind I dont see how its any different with gas. Looks like out of the 15 biggest oil companies if they had pleny of supply and were making %50 profett they would say "hey lets sell twice as much oil as the other guys for $10 a barrel less and we will make our stock holders an unreal amout of $$. If its not a supply and demand problem why does that not happen? I guess I just dont get it. Thats economics at a very basic level that should always hold true I would think. Now as for the untapped domestic oil, if there gonna make a %50 profett on it, it would seem plain retarted to not drill it. I mean its there jobs to make sure all the company owners/stock holders get all the $$ they can. As a side note I didnt know till recently that something like %80 of the american companies are owned by people who make around 60k a year, lots of retirement funds and stuff like that. And only %1 of stocks are owned by the company insider's, lil off topic but something I didnt know. So now I joke with my sister who is a 6th grade teacher and tell her she is the problem{state job retirement funds own a lot of stock in oil companys I guess its a pretty safe investment.} Ahhh as my papow always said it will all come out in the wash. So does american oil companies not have to file an income tax? I figured any company has to file. I mean walmart is owned by thousands of stock holders but I figures they still have to file how else do they get taxed?